tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post6331760243475162152..comments2024-03-21T09:39:36.523+11:00Comments on Ἡλληνιστεύκοντος: Etymologies and attestation of μουνίopoudjishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-91274774933860915482017-09-29T19:52:18.819+10:002017-09-29T19:52:18.819+10:00Rumi, the great Persian poet, composed several poe...Rumi, the great Persian poet, composed several poems in modern Greek. The word μουνί is to be found in one of them: Πόσα λαλείς, Η ψιλή μου καυλώθηκεν, θέλω μουνί.<br /><br />see http://www.opoudjis.net/Play/rumiwalad.html<br /><br />Note that Persian (= Arabic) alphabet has no vowels. Therefore mn is transliterated by some scholars as μονή (= monastery)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-23563575575666992522017-05-02T00:09:46.487+10:002017-05-02T00:09:46.487+10:00Sports betting system makes +$3,624 profit last we...<b>Sports betting system makes +$3,624 profit last week!</b><br /><br /><b><a href="http://sports.syntaxlinks.com/r/ZCodeSystem" rel="nofollow">Z-Code System</a></b> winning bets and forecasts for MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL...Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-574505012256120232017-02-20T07:36:07.358+11:002017-02-20T07:36:07.358+11:00Did you know you can shorten your links with LinkS...Did you know you can shorten your links with <b><a href="http://shortener.syntaxlinks.com/r/LinkShrink" rel="nofollow">LinkShrink</a></b> and <b>earn dollars from every click on</b> your shortened links.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-57028839394753258852017-02-08T13:11:26.171+11:002017-02-08T13:11:26.171+11:00If you are looking into generating money from your...If you are looking into <b>generating money</b> from your <b>visitors</b> via <b>popup ads</b> - you should use one of the most reputable companies - <b><a href="http://popups.syntaxlinks.com/r/PropellerAds" rel="nofollow">PropellerAds</a></b>.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-12418518530357930562011-01-04T21:46:58.418+11:002011-01-04T21:46:58.418+11:00- Corona Pretiosa is now digitalised:
http://galli...- Corona Pretiosa is now digitalised:<br />http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k603915 <br /><br />- The word μουνή is found in De Cagne's "Glossarium" (16th c.) also digital.<br /><br />- Every Greek school-boy taking his first steps in english has giggled with the similiarity between "moon" and mouni. But as S. Freud indicated, joke is a trick to express a secret and forbidden truth. May I propose as a working hypothesis that mouni is mythically connected to the Greek μην (month) and moon via the monthly men-struation? I think there are many evidences that moon is in many ways identified with the woman in myth and history. What you think?foulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08932783997706222696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-44636385724510476792010-05-23T15:40:38.488+10:002010-05-23T15:40:38.488+10:00Perhaps the chain : Mons Veneris>Το βουνίν της ...Perhaps the chain : Mons Veneris>Το βουνίν της Αφροδίτης (Ιn Greek-Cypriotic)>μουνίν>μουνί deserves a more serious research.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-12632061936393494072010-02-20T14:07:24.027+11:002010-02-20T14:07:24.027+11:00Nick, the distribution of monnu/munnu/munno in Sou...Nick, the distribution of <i>monnu/munnu/munno</i> in Southern Italy as well as in other places (in Italy I mean) is well attested but with a totally different meaning and etymology: < mondo, i.e world. <br />Check out this:<br /><a href="http://www.dialettando.com/dizionario/detail_new.lasso?id=30407&-session=dialetti:D507008A055fa05F62gMFEC5207B" rel="nofollow">dialettando.com</a><br /><br />What does Rohlfs exactly say? <br /><br />I see no necessity for a Greek etymology (all the more because there is NO convincing Greek etymology...). On the contrary, Monna/Mona (as in Mona Lisa) is Panitalian, the texts referred to in trecanni (Dante, Boccacio) are also very well known and the step you have to make from Mona (Lady) to mona (cunt, with a totum pro parte synecdoche) is very small when compared with all the unattested jumps of all Greek etymologies...<br /><br />So, I guess we disagree.<br /><br />Your comment about corporeality in folksongs is very interesting but I have no opinion (I have never thought about it).TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-11548528729202283882010-02-19T13:52:43.662+11:002010-02-19T13:52:43.662+11:00Βασίλη, να 'σαι καλά. Για το πότερον είναι το ...Βασίλη, να 'σαι καλά. Για το πότερον είναι το πιο σημαντικό—στους άρρενες γλωσσοπλάστες του ιγʹ αιώνα, εννοείται—ας μου επιτραπεί να μην επεκταθώ.<br /><br />TAK: The song's Epirus, where unstressed /u/ can be hypercorrected back to /o/, and we have no old evidence of a /mon/ form. Moreover, it's not that there was no Romance etymology at all, though I may have implied it: Cortelazzo himself says there's been no shortage of attempts to explain <i>monna</i>. The real challenge is still the distribution of <i>monnu</i> in Southern Italy, which points to Greek and not Venetian or Vulgar Latin as a source...<br /><br />And off topic again, but the song reminds me of an interesting contrast between Greek and Greek Cypriot folksong. Folksong collections were clearly bowdlerised in the 19th century, and give a curiously aethereal impression in their love songs: their maidens don't seem to have actual bodies (apart from the cover-all term λυγερή "slender".) Researchers bring up this kind of song to prove that Greeks could too sing about sex:<br /><br /><i>The cunt's called Yota [short for Panayota]<br />and the dick's called Panayota <br />and you can go ask anyone you like.<br />The head goes in first<br />and the balls close the door.</i><br /><br />But that kind of carnival song doesn't disprove the hands-off approach to sex: it merely reinforces it—physical love is only a fitting topic for carnivals, when everything is let loose, but not for courting.<br /><br />Until I went googling just now, I had the impression it's very different in Cyprus, where folk love songs are aware of bodies. I don't think these (rather well known) lyrics are possible in mainland Greek folk song:<br /><br />"My clothes are by the river, my arms are in town, my lover is in fair Karavas. ...<br />Would that I were a column on the river of Karavas: my lover would pass by, and I would kiss her on the mouth."<br /><br />"<a href="http://mousalyra.com.cy/greek/diskografia_kypaia_foni1.htm" rel="nofollow">Oh, if I go from Rizokarpaso to Yaloussa</a>, my eyes have never seen such a coquette. Ah, girl of Karpassos, from Karpasos I say, the two breasts on your chest, they fit in my hand" <br /><br />Or at least, I *thought* so; but a quick google of να τη φιλώ στο στόμα and βυζ(ι)ά του κόρφου σου shows that the Greek islands at least followed suit (Crete, Samos, Syros). And it turns out that the Karavas song is not Cypriot, but a <a href="http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD+%CE%A0%CE%BF%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BC%CF%8C+%CF%84%CE%B1+%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%87%CE%B1+%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%85%22+%CE%A7%CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%AF%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82" rel="nofollow">1937 Greek recording</a>. (It's plausibly a folk song that got first recorded then, but the point is it isn't exclusive to Cyprus.)<br /><br />So I think I had the impression because Cyprus censors its songs less, not having gone via Athens, but also because Athens privileged the heroic ballads of the mainland, where physicality wasn't as prominent. Whether I'm justified in positing a mainland/island cultural split here, I don't know; but if it's true, it certainly wouldn't be the first.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-45500601366781768472010-02-18T01:34:46.303+11:002010-02-18T01:34:46.303+11:00αγαπητε Νικ, και μονο οτι ενας μη φιλολογος διαβασ...αγαπητε Νικ, και μονο οτι ενας μη φιλολογος διαβασε το αρθρο σου, ειναι αποδειξη πιστευω, της αξιας του.<br />αν μου επιτρεπης, το "συγκαπτη" για το οποιο αναρωτιεσαι μου φαινεται προφανες οτι σημαινει "συγκαει" (με ολο το θαρρος του μη ειδικου στη φιλολογια αλλα του ερασιτεχνη πατερα).<br />και τελος καταχρωμαι της φιλοξενιας σου για να πω οτι με σοκαρισε ο φιλτατος ΤΑΚ οταν ισχυριστηκε οσα -τοτουμε περ παρτε- ισχυριστηκε για το ποιο ειναι το πιο σημαντικο, η Μοννα η η μονα...<br />ευχαριστω για τη φιλοξενια<br />Βασιλης<br /><br />ΥΓ ναι , ειναι μαλλον πιο αληθοφανης η ετυμολογια που προτεινει , οι γριες οντως το λενε μονι αυτο που το λενε Γιωτα...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-72512364491065939402010-02-15T13:02:16.739+11:002010-02-15T13:02:16.739+11:00Nick, you have done a great job collecting all the...Nick, you have done a great job collecting all the evidence and I am afraid I cannot do the same. But since we need to end this mounology, please allow me to present my hypothesis.<br /><br />Monna in Italian is a form with syncope for Madonna (= My Lady) already attested in the XIII century, according to Palazzi-Folena (I copy the entry):<br />monna [da <i>m(ad)onna</i>, mia signora; sec. XIII] sf. titolo che si dava nel Medioevo alle donne maritate, madonna: <i> monna Filippa </i>; dim. <i>monnìna</i>.<br /><br />Monna could have easily become Mona - I don't know when, but it is certainly attested as such by Somavera in his Italian-Greek Dictionary; I copy from p.306:<br />Mona. Κυράτζα, η, κυαράτζα, η.<br />Mona. v. Gatta<br />Mona. (animale) Η μαϊμού με την ουράν (ζώον)<br />Mona. v. Natura della donna.<br /><br />I copied all the relevant entries, but I will only discuss the first one (= lady) in relation with the fourth (= cunt).<br /><br />The main reason you rejected the Venetian etymology was that it lacked a Latin origin. But the word "Monna" (= lady) was already there in Italian in the 13th century and if you go to <a href="http://www.treccani.it/Portale/elements/categoriesItems.jsp?pathFile=/sites/default/BancaDati/Vocabolario_online/M/VIT_III_M_071255.xml" rel="nofollow">trecanni</a> you will see that the word also had ironical uses that questioned the dignity and the character of the ladies that it referred to... <br /><br />What I see here is a rather classical and easy to grasp "totum pro parte" synecdochical use of the word [the lady became her most significant body part, i.e. her pudendum...]<br /><br />If we went from Monna>Mona>Ven.mona>Ven. monin>MGr μουνίν or more directly from the diminutive monnina>monnin (with or without intervention of Ven. monin)>MGr μουνίν is something that may be difficult to investigate (I am not an Italianist and I do not quite know when and where the dim. monnina was used).<br /><br />However, I believe that instead of going through all the acrobatic postulations of all Greek etymologies (from βινείν, μνους, ευνή, etc.), we should accept this direct route, which makes perfect sense, at least to me.<br /><br />Now, one may ask why Italianists didn't think of Monna; perhaps they got confused due to the semantic relevance between Venetian mona and modern Greek μουνίν and started looking for a common ancestor which they could not find; who knows.<br /><br />I will close with a carnival song (it's the last weekend of carnival here): <br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuLcjb4p3kk" rel="nofollow">Το μουνί το λένε Γιώτα</a><br /><br />(and I think you can actually hear some of the old ladies singing 'to moni' rather than 'to mouni'...).TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.com