tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post2928610519850317663..comments2024-03-21T09:39:36.523+11:00Comments on Ἡλληνιστεύκοντος: μουνί vs. monínopoudjishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-74093305100862797022020-06-30T00:00:34.001+10:002020-06-30T00:00:34.001+10:00I, too, can't help but note the similarity wit...I, too, can't help but note the similarity with Sumerian "munus" woman/mulier. (as opposed to "nin" titled Lady, that is, spouse) Whether it is coincidental... E. C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-68496242753286814662014-04-26T01:49:26.987+10:002014-04-26T01:49:26.987+10:00Umberto Eco, La bustina di Minerva, p. 304.
Come ...Umberto Eco, La bustina di Minerva, <a href="http://books.google.it/books?id=ww6Hnq0FYkgC&pg=PT290" rel="nofollow">p. 304</a>.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.santalmassiaschienadritta.it/2011/02/intercettazioni-avreste-mai-immaginato-che-umberto-eco.html" rel="nofollow"><em>Come si scopre un complotto</em></a><br /><br />La settimana scorsa mi hanno messo il telefono sotto controllo. Così hanno registrato il seguente dialogo.<br /><br />IO: Ti sveglio mica?<br />LUI: No, ma temo di sapere per cosa…<br />IO: Allora questa mona…<br />LUI: La mia ragazza l’ha data via ieri… capisci…<br />IO: No, non capisco. E tu come niente fosse?…<br />LUI: Eh… senti… Io ero a Palermo, sai… per la loggia…<br />IO: E quella… così?<br />LUI: Guarda, ti giuro, non era gran ché… Sembrava fresca perché era lavata… Tu meriti di meglio.<br />IO: Sei un porco, scusa.<br />LUI: Uno le ha offerto un sacco di soldi… È successo così, per telefono.<br />IO: Chiuso con la mona, OK. Adesso non dirmi che anche l’altra roba… mi interessava anche…<br />[…]<br /><br />Prontamente interrogato dal magistrato, gli ho spiegato che si trattava di un dialogo innocente, fatto nello stile spezzato ed ellittico con cui due persone alludono a cose note a entrambi. Stavo telefonando a un libraio antiquario il quale sapeva che da anni sto cercando la prima edizione della <em>Monas Hieroglyphica</em> di John Dee. Ed ecco che era menzionata nel suo nuovo catalogo. Apprendevo con dispetto che la sua segretaria l’aveva già venduto, mentre lui era a Palermo per vedersi con un noto collezionista, il prof. La Loggia. Lui mi spiegava imbarazzato che in fondo si trattava di una copia scadente (addirittura, come si dice in gergo antiquariale, era stata “lavata”), e che d’altra parte era lui che aveva detto alla segretaria di far fuori al più presto tutti i titoli, perché aveva bisogno di soldi.<br /><br />[…]<br /><br />Come si vede, una conversazione normale, se letta o ascoltata nel giusto contesto. Ahimè, andremo entrambi sotto processo per sfruttamento della prostituzione, uso illecito del 144, adesione a società segreta, contatti con mafia e servizi italiani e stranieri, spaccio di droga, dazione ambientale a elementi della prima e seconda repubblica, corruzione, concussione e furto di atti giudiziari.Ein Steppenwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01050569954300868302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-72272027218753756272014-04-25T18:36:07.819+10:002014-04-25T18:36:07.819+10:00a secondary meaning of μουνί, optionally combined ...<em>a secondary meaning of μουνί, optionally combined with καπέλο "hat": "Phrase: cunt(–hat): (a) a mess, damage, or turmoil: After the party, his house was cunt(–hat)</em><br /><br />In Italian "I capelli" (single "p") means "hair", "κόμη". Could it be the case that καπέλο refers not to hats ("cappelli", with double "p"), but to (untrimmed and unkempt) pubic hair, also known as "bush"?Ein Steppenwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01050569954300868302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-29388905108737966992014-04-25T18:21:51.363+10:002014-04-25T18:21:51.363+10:00I'm not going to put the Mozartkuglen in my lu...<em>I'm not going to put the Mozartkuglen in my luggage</em><br /><br />Does the plural form <em>Kuglen</em> (instead of <em>Kugeln</em>) exist? Is it exclusively (or mainly) Austrian?Ein Steppenwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01050569954300868302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-45559085803770020512010-04-28T21:17:48.896+10:002010-04-28T21:17:48.896+10:00I think this "mouni" word has some phone...I think this "mouni" word has some phonetical origin in the Sumerian 'munnus', with the same semantical meaning (also "woman"), which is written in cuneiform quite graphically as a triangle with a short median line at the lower angle.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-10487286952511272042010-04-23T02:02:42.852+10:002010-04-23T02:02:42.852+10:00Some interesting info. Beekes in βουνός
http://w...Some interesting info. Beekes in βουνός <br /><br />http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\greek&first=1311<br /><br />Etymology: Acc. to Hdt. 4, 199 Cyrenaean, but the word is Dorian (Solmsen, Berliner Phil. Wochenschrift 1906, 756f.). A dialectal word that was spread in Hellenistic times (DELG). - Fur. 08, 213 cites mounias, mouniadikon as variants of bounias, which may points to Pre-Gr. origin. He further adduces Basque muno `hill'. Further he refers to prounous bounous H. - Fur. 213 n. 53 thinks that bounos stibas (`bed of straw') derives from bunwAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-33673438754765066692010-04-01T23:27:00.976+11:002010-04-01T23:27:00.976+11:00According to a google result of "μώνια σύκα&q...According to a google result of "μώνια σύκα", <a href="http://epub.oeaw.ac.at/0xc1aa500d_0x00075935.pdf" rel="nofollow">Trapp VI 5</a> has an entry for μώνια: τά ? Feigen: τὰ μώνια σῦκα LudwAnek. 70,2.<br /><br />One more thing to check then.π2https://www.blogger.com/profile/05358956410218220563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-47557183537371098082010-04-01T09:08:07.672+11:002010-04-01T09:08:07.672+11:00Intriguing! We have Hellenika at the libraryl I...Intriguing! We have <i>Hellenika</i> at the libraryl I'll check it out.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-86878931692626659982010-04-01T05:52:33.561+11:002010-04-01T05:52:33.561+11:00The word is connected with medieval Greek μώνια σ...The word is connected with medieval Greek μώνια σῦκα < αἱμώνια σῦκα;σῦκον = 1. fig.2. pudenda muliebria. Ἑλληνικά 57 (2007)385-389.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-47837567768014628272010-02-15T11:04:37.473+11:002010-02-15T11:04:37.473+11:00Oops. Nick, when I said: "Babiniotis uses αντ...Oops. Nick, when I said: "Babiniotis uses αντιδάνειο, that is why I wrote calque, sorry" I meant I was confused (αντιδάνειο and μεταφραστικό δάνειο are quite different of course...). But I was in a hurry, apologies. I am going to read your new post now.TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-51475708738850626542010-02-14T07:57:06.683+11:002010-02-14T07:57:06.683+11:00The movie Master and Commander: The Far Side of th...The movie <i>Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World</i> conflates two different O'Brian books with those titles, with the first supplying the introductions to the characters (being #1 in the novel sequence) and the second (being #10) supplying essentially all of the plot. Naturally, there is no mention whatsoever of cu(n)t-splices.<br /><br />I, at least, have discoursed on occasion on the etymologies of (English) dirty words at dinner. So there. <i>Cunt</i> in particular is quite interesting. If it's a native word (and it has obvious cognates in all Germanic languages) what is the <i>n</i> doing there? The North Sea Nasal Spirant Law should make it vanish, as in (English/German) <i>us/uns</i>, <i>other/ander</i>, <i>five/fünf</i>, <i>soft/sanft</i>, <i>goose/gans</i>. Frisian and Low Saxon fall on the English side, but Dutch sometimes goes one way as in <i>ander</i>, sometimes the other as in <i>vijf</i>. And the Dutch for 'cunt' is <i>kut</i>. Could ME <i>cunte, counte</i> possibly be a mixture of an unrecorded OE <i>cúþa</i>, ultimately from PIE <i>*gen-/*gon-</i>, and OF <i>con</i> < Latin <i>cunnus</i> (whose Greek cognate is κυσος, speaking of loss of nasals)? Nobody knows.<br /><br />One of the euphemisms for dirty words is <i>(Anglo-)Saxon words</i>, yet <i>piss</i> is definitely French despite also appearing in many Germanic languages, all of which get it directly or indirectly from French. It's unclear whether the similar words in the other Romance languages, like It. <i>pisciare</i>, are direct relatives or not: the whole group is very likely of imitative origin.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-82298656241986704502010-02-13T22:00:59.575+11:002010-02-13T22:00:59.575+11:00Nick, yes, Rückwanderer (Babiniotis uses αντιδάνει...Nick, yes, Rückwanderer (Babiniotis uses αντιδάνειο, that is why I wrote calque, sorry).<br />No, Jeffreys hasn't found anything you didn't (as I said data is similar with minor differences = the date of the first appearance and the hypothesis on Comnena's Oumbertopoulos). But he too admits that it started off as a diminutive for cubs of animals. So, no difference there either. <br />As for 'να': I do not want to question its appearance in the 12th century (it is certain, both in documents and in vernacular texts), I question earlier appearances (as in Skylitzes continuatus). Also the case of Tzetzis, with a hapax legomenon in a rather lengthy corpus of texts, based on a reading in just one ms. of the 14th c. still makes me very skeptical. <br />If disputing conventional thinking throws out a lot of data, well no problem with me, if conventional thinking can be proved wrong...TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-33230136917074900292010-02-13T13:27:09.270+11:002010-02-13T13:27:09.270+11:00TAK: 11:35. να
The conventional thinking is indee...TAK: 11:35. να<br /><br />The conventional thinking is indeed that, if one manuscript has a vernacular passage in an otherwise learnèd text, and another has a learnèd reading, it is more plausible that the scribe dollied up the embarrassing vernacularism, than that the scribe introduced the embarrassing vernacularism off their own bat. Disputing that.... would throw out a lot of data.<br /><br />But I don't see the reason to do so anyway:<br /> * If you want unambiguous evidence of να used in the 12th century, Caracausi's dictionary of Southern Italian Greek monastic documents has several dated instances (1144?, 1168, 1170).<br /> * If you want evidence of ἵνα (> να) used where Ancient Greek used the infinitive, some would argue you can already get that in the New Testament. The usage here admittedly, after a verb of emotion, is fairly modern.<br /> * If you want evidence of aphaeresis of initial unstressed vowels in Middle Greek, well I'd have to crack a book for a change, but I think there'll be a few placenames that can prove it by the 12th century.<br /><br />If we accept Tzetzes lapsed into the vernacular for just that one translation, I do not believe να + verb is impossible. The question mark over early literary instances you pose is appropriate, and I'll write further on it: it has a nice parallel with evidence for language change in the New Testament vs the papyri. But I don't see the question mark as strong enough to reject the reading.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-9048242267933929622010-02-13T13:15:08.379+11:002010-02-13T13:15:08.379+11:00TAK: 11:35
I actually knew about the -πωλος varia...TAK: 11:35<br /><br />I actually knew about the -πωλος variant, but didn't bother searching for it. When I write the post, I'll be more scrupulous; I just wanted a ballpark. Doesn't look like Jeffreys found something I hadn't, though.<br /><br />His interpretation is that the suffix started on names as a true diminutive—i.e. dismissive, or "junior". That makes sense, although the "hatchling of a bird" > "cub of animal" sense which Hierophilus gives persists in Modern Greek, and may well explain why the suffix became so popular as a patronymic.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-75249612246698455022010-02-13T13:11:03.380+11:002010-02-13T13:11:03.380+11:00@TAK 10:49: Well, no. :-)
* monín can't be a...@TAK 10:49: Well, no. :-)<br /><br /> * <i>monín</i> can't be a calque for βινεῖν, because <i>monín</i> is meaningless in Romance: that's the point of ultimately deriving it from Greek. You mean Rückwanderer, right?<br /> * The Greek etymologies are all via unattested words, that's true; at least βινεῖν (which is Moutsos') is somewhat more plausible. <br /> * μουνίν < <i>monín</i> rids us of a Greek difficulty, and just gives us a bigger Romance difficulty, because <i>monín</i> has no Romance etymology.<br /> * The data from Bova and Erice only makes sense if <i>munno</i> was in Greek a long time ago—before Greek retreated from Sicily. As in 10th century.<br /> * So having μουνί come from Venice doesn't explain <i>munno</i> in Erice.<br /><br />The alternative to <i>monín</i> coming from Greek is untenable:<br /> * A Middle Greek <i>*mono</i> ends up as Bova Greek <i>monnu</i> and Erice <i>munno</i><br /> * The Middle Greek <i>*mono</i> also ends up borrowed by Venetian as <i>mona</i> > <i>monín</i>. (There's no common Greek substrate to Bova and Venice)<br /> * A couple of centuries later, <i>monín</i> gets borrowed back into Greek into μουνίν.<br /><br />And what does that gain us? Any etymology of a Middle Greek <i>*mono</i> is going to be as awkward as the etymologies for Modern Greek μουνίν, and we've just added a couple of unnecessary steps.<br /><br />No, we're going to have to come up with a Greek etymology here. "After eliminating the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is the truth"opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-66110769430735845452010-02-13T11:35:36.348+11:002010-02-13T11:35:36.348+11:00@Peter and Nick on -poulos:
Michael Jeffreys in &q...@Peter and Nick on -poulos:<br />Michael Jeffreys in "Modern Greek in the 11th century - or what else should we call it?", <i>Κάμπος: Cambridge Papers in Modern Greek</i>, 15, 2007, 61-89, provides similar data with slightly different dates. E.g. on p. 69 he states "the first such family name I have found is Gavrielopoulos (first decade of the 10th century), a debauched companion of the Emperor Alexander. The termination might have a dismissive connotation. Later in the 10th century there are the Kometopouloi, Bulgarian princes, and a Sarakenopoulos, a military man stationed in Bulgaria." The bulk of his evidence comes from the 11th century (over 30 surnames) but he includes both -πώλος and -πουλος ("which seem to be used interchangeably").<br />As for Anna Comnena's Oumbertopoulos, he comes up with some interesting data from seals, which shows that "the man called Oumbertopoulos by Anna called himself on his seals Konstantinos Oumbertos" and proposes the theory that "the -opoulos ending, despite probable vernacular roots, took on in the learned language the force of the American 'Junior', to distinguish between homonyms".<br /><br />Oh, and btw, Nick, in the same paper Jeffreys also discusses the appearance of 'να' in Skylitzes Continuatus. Here is what he says (pp. 64-5):<br /><br />το δημώδες τούτο και κατημαξευμένον: εγώ σε έκτισα, φούρνε, και εγώ να σε χαλάσω.<br /><br />Manuscripts of the continuator are confused here. It is assumed, in the edition that where readings close to 11th-century oral language are found in some manuscripts and conventional written forms in others, preference should be given to oral forms. Thus the future "να σε χαλάσω", is printed in preference to its learned equivalent "σε καταλύσω", since the former is unexpected in writing and therefore the <i>lectio difficilior</i>.<br /><br />I couldn't find Tsolakis edition in the library, but from what Jeffreys says, I infer that the 'να' in Skylitzes Continuatus is an editorial intervention, most probably found in later mss. and inserted in the text as a <i>lectio difficilior</i> instead of being considered a vernacular form introduced by a say 13th c. scribe as a "simplification", according to his time's register when 'να' certainly existed.TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-2882970372543641362010-02-13T10:49:57.550+11:002010-02-13T10:49:57.550+11:00Nick, thanks for the explanation; now your point i...Nick, thanks for the explanation; now your point is much clearer to me.<br /><br />My objection still remains though, because I find all proposed etymologies for Greek μουνίν problematic (as you do too). I think you don't have to be a linguist, to realize that the following (from Triantaphyllides' Dictionary) is far fetched/based on too many missing links/unattested words:<br /><br />αρχ. εὐνή `κρεβάτι, κρεβάτι του γάμου΄ ελνστ. υποκορ. *εὐνίον > μσν. *βνίον (αποβ. του αρχικού άτ. φων.) > *μνίον (για την τροπή [vn > mn] σύγκρ. ευνούχος > μουνούχος, ελαύνω > λάμνω) > *μουνίον (ανάπτ. [u] ανάμεσα σε αρχικό [m] και ακόλουθο σύμφ., σύγκρ. *μνούχος > μουνούχος) > μσν. μουνίν ή < αρχ. μνοῦς `μαλακό πούπουλο, χνουδάκι΄ ελνστ. υποκορ. *μνίον > μσν. *μουνίον (όπως στην προηγ. υπόθεση) > μσν. μουνίν (πρβ. όμως και βεν. mona, ίδ. σημ.)<br /><br />In my view, an etymology from Venetian monin, dim. of mona, would make much more sense, cause it would be much more straightforward. To what extent this is a calque (< AGr βινείν) as Babiniotis and possibly Moutsos (whom I have not read) suggest, remains to be investigated (and again explained with unattested middle words, right?). But your Southern Italian villages make it possible (though you seem to reject this scenario with your original post's closing sentence - or I am wrong?).TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-34410496762302358992010-02-11T15:55:26.326+11:002010-02-11T15:55:26.326+11:00Peter: thank you for my next blog post. :-)
Here&...Peter: thank you for my next blog post. :-)<br /><br />Here's the executive summary from a quick search in the TLG. It's indicative and not exhaustive, but it doesn't surprise me given what I know:<br /><br />* The prevalent etymology is from Latin <i>pullus</i> "bird" (πουλί). The only alternative proposal I know of is from πῶλος "colt".<br />* Like all Modern patronymics, it's a diminutive (it's the Peloponnesian diminutive in Modern Greek).<br />* First use according to TLG dates as a diminutive (and there are huge slabs of salt to take with any of that, as I'll post eventually): a Hierophilus, writing on diet, 4th/6th C. AD? Consistent with <i>pullus</i>, he refers to "little roosters, little hens, little pidgeons".<br />* First expanded use as a diminutive: Leontius of Neapolis (7th century)—no surprise at all, he's the most vernacular author from before the Dark Ages. "little abbot"<br />* First use in a proper name: George the Monk, 9th century: Argyropoulos, Gabrielopoulos. Gabrielopoulos also in four 10th century chroniclers. Anna Comnena has an Umbertopoulos in the 11th century, and the Continuators of Scylitzes a Longibardopoulos (i.e. Lombardopoulos).<br /><br />... so you guessed right. I don't have access to the right prosopographical dictionary to do more detailed analysis, but that's good enough for me.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-66237693232436948362010-02-11T15:08:41.795+11:002010-02-11T15:08:41.795+11:00OK, I don't particularly intend for this blog ...<i>OK, I don't particularly intend for this blog to be turned over to the etymology of sundry four-letter words, but the etymology of μουνί which I had posted on turns out to be complicated, and interesting.</i><br /><br />Interesting for sure, but unfortunately it's not a subject matter I can bring up at the dinner table: "Hey, Marie, you want to hear something cool? Do you know that the etymology of the Greek c-word is . . . ."<br /><br />I have a question if you don't mind, N. What is the earliest attestation of the patronymic suffix "-poulos"? If I recall my Byzantine history, I am guessing 9th or 10th century. Also, is it Greek in origin, or Latin? Thanks.<br /><br />(Note: If it's neither Greek nor Latin, then I don't want to know. ;) )Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08068077941877080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-41511213459008708072010-02-11T11:45:49.961+11:002010-02-11T11:45:49.961+11:00John: I *knew* I recognised the book title; when r...John: I *knew* I recognised the book title; when reading up on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Crowe" rel="nofollow">Rusty Crowe</a> in Wikipedia, I fell across the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_and_Commander:_The_Far_Side_of_the_World" rel="nofollow">movie</a> very loosely (if at all) based on the novel. That I only heard of this 2003 movie on Wikipedia, and not when it was released, indicates both that I should get out more, and that the movie did not do all that well.<br /><br />The movie is Hollywood and not indie, so I suspect it too would have treated the <i>n</i> as silent, if cut splices were mentioned at all. (And I doubt they'd have bothered, in a movie whose audience is meant to be broader than 19th century sailors.)opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-35940305475376921382010-02-11T11:20:25.170+11:002010-02-11T11:20:25.170+11:00TAK: The second post won't convince you about ...TAK: The second post won't convince you about much of anything, I suspect: the etymologies that have been proposed within Greek over the years have all been either semantically stretched, or phonologically stretched. The evidence that's turned me, like I said, is the presence of <i>munno</i> in Southern Italian Greek. Let me spell it out a bit more explicitly.<br /><br /> * We have a Venetian word, that may be of either Venetian or Greek origin.<br /> * The word shows up in the immediate vicinity of Venice. (And, apparently, Provence.)<br /> * This word does not show up anywhere else in Italian...<br /> * ... Except for two villages: Bova, a Greek-speaking village in Calabria (where Greek has certainly been spoken continuously since the 10th century, and likely continuously since antiquity); and Erice, a village in Sicily, which is known to have a Greek substrate. <br /> * The word has no known Romance etymology for the word. So it turning up in both Venice and Erice is not because of Roman legionaries: it's not a common inheritance.<br /> * We could say the word travelled to Bova and Erice through Venetian sailors. But it's implausible that sailors carried the word to just those two villages (which happen to have a Greek connection), and to *no other* coastal village in Southern Italy.<br /> * In addition, the two villages have <i>munno</i> and <i>monnu</i>—which does not point back to a Venetian <i>mona</i> or <i>monín</i>, but *<i>munno</i>. If the word was a reasonably recent loan, the change on inflection doesn't make sense. (I should say though, this is the weakest point of Moutsos' proposed etymology.)<br /> * This means a Greek origin is most plausible for both Bova and Erice.<br /> * Since we conclude Bova and Erice got the word from Greek, and we don't know whether Venetian got it from Greek or not, the simplest hypothesis is that Venetian got it from Greek too.<br /> <br />Rohlfs can be overenthusiastic about seeing Dorians everywhere in Southern Italy, and I have published a paper refuting his claim that [ɡw] in Apulian Greek (<i>gwenno</i> for Modern Greek βγαίνω [vɣeno]) is somehow derived from Ancient Greek. But this argument has convinced me (and Cortelazzo)—although Rohlfs stated in German much more elegantly. ("Die italogriechische Form lässt eine ältere einheimische griechische Tradition erkennen.") <br /><br />The Venetian word could easily have travelled back to Greece. However the timeframe for Venetian–Greek contact rules out the classic Rückwanderer scenario. (Greek lends the word to Venetian, Greek forgets the word existed, Greek reimports the word back from Venetian.)opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-14239994960981274192010-02-11T08:04:08.590+11:002010-02-11T08:04:08.590+11:00Jack Aubrey, from Patrick O'Brian's Master...Jack Aubrey, from Patrick O'Brian's <i>Master and Commander</i> (1969):<br /><br />"Where's the bosun? Now, Mr. Watt, let me see the tackles rigged: you want a hard-eye becket on that block. Where's the breeching?"<br /><br />"Almost ready, sir", said the sweating, harassed bosun. "I'm working the cunt-splice myself."<br /><br />"Well," said Jack, hurrying off to where the stern-chaser hung poised above the <i>Sophie's</i> quarter-deck, ready to plunge through her bottom if gravity could but have its way, "a simple thing like a cunt-splice will not take a man-of-war's bosun long, I believe."<br /><br />The year is 1800. Of course, what historical novelists say is not evidence, but O'Brian is known to have been quite careful with language.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-61503025188633922922010-02-11T01:56:08.620+11:002010-02-11T01:56:08.620+11:00Nick, nice post! You really made me laugh with thi...Nick, nice post! You really made me laugh with this: the etymology of μουνί... είναι μουνί!!!!!<br /><br />From what you write I think it's obvious that μουνί/mounin/mona, etc. were part of the Lingua Franca of sailors through which they travelled around the Mediterranean (a view that I accept and is supported by surviving texts and their dates). However, I do not actually see why you believe the Greek form came first (perhaps I have to wait for your second post).<br /><br />I really liked your point about the cut splice (if indeed related, it would mean that both μουνί and γκόμενα originally referred to ropes and entered modern Greek via the Lingua Franca of the sailors, sth. that I find both interesting and plausible).<br /><br />I just note that μούνα too (< Ven. monna) is recorded in Kriaras, in the sense monkey, whereas Somavera records both μούνα (monkey) and μουνάρα (big cunt). Μεγάλε Σομαβέρα!!!!TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.com