tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post1832847906152071963..comments2024-03-12T18:40:26.776+11:00Comments on Ἡλληνιστεύκοντος: War of Troyopoudjishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-71419258822013562482010-06-19T12:30:16.433+10:002010-06-19T12:30:16.433+10:00Ditto τόρτσα [tortsa] for chandelier,
Torch? fro...Ditto τόρτσα [tortsa] for chandelier,<br /><br />Torch? from torche\re.Nauplionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598950480737808706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-40251689644945598652010-01-21T23:39:03.300+11:002010-01-21T23:39:03.300+11:00The link below displays the results (125 entries) ...The link below displays the results (125 entries) and an easy way to search for entries in Kriaras that come from the War of Troy (you should type Τρωαδ. in the search box and then check the box "Αναζήτηση και στο σώμα των λημμάτων). <br />http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/medieval_greek/kriaras/search.html?lq=%CE%A4%CF%81%CF%89%CE%B1%CE%B4.&loptall=true&dq=MariaAkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12657097953343570060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-58777119234090256372009-09-16T15:05:20.543+10:002009-09-16T15:05:20.543+10:00I've been curious about what happened to Greek...<b>I've been curious about what happened to Greek between the New Testament (never read any Plutarch) and the Modern Greek I heard and studied in Athens during the semester I was there...</b><br /><br />Nothing much---relatively speaking, of course.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08068077941877080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-39663047310929751982009-08-31T05:58:32.297+10:002009-08-31T05:58:32.297+10:00Dear godson,
thanks for the separate answer (godf...Dear godson,<br /><br />thanks for the separate answer (godfather is flattered!).<br /><br />I don't know how I managed to catch pneumonia in August (in Cyprus, mind you!), but it's been horrible: I spent nearly a month in bed with high fever... I am hopefully recovering but it takes time...<br /><br />Back to the War of Troy. You will be happy to know, I guess, that Tassos Karanastassis agrees with you: he too believes that it is more likely that the redactor/translator eclectically slipped in Italian terms of chivalry for French rather than that he actually used an Italian translation/version. <br /><br />Now, I cannot exclude this possibility and I cannot contradict you on this, but it is the literary parallels (besides linguistic evidence, I mean) that make me believe that an Italian version is more possible. Let us not forget that we have texts from the same period (14th c.), the same region (Peloponnese) and even of the same genre (romances) that have followed the same route, i.e. not directly from French but via Italian translations. The most telling example would be the Greek romance of Florios which does not translate the French Floir et Blancheflor of the 12th c. but the 14th-c. Italian Cantare di Fiorio et Biancifiore . Equally, Apollonius of Tyrus follows the same route to enter the early modern Greek literary tradition, i.e. via Italian translations/redactions (most notably that of Antonio Pucci) and the same is valid for the fragmentary Arthurian romance The old knight/Ο πρέσβυς ιππότης . If we believe Spadaro's hypothesis, at the same time (14th c.) and in the same region (Peloponnese) Boccacio's Teseida found its way to Greek literature thanks to the Acciaiulo family's intervention. As for Imberios , it is quite clear that it is not a direct translation of the French Pierre de Provence et la belle Maguelonne , but we have been unable to find an intermediary (Schreiner thought it to be Catalan, but this remains an (intriguing) hypothesis since the Catalan text was never found). In any case, if the Greek War of Troy is a direct translation from the French original, then this makes it a unique case at the time and we still need to find an explanation for the Italianisms of the text. As I said, I cannot exclude the possibility that the Greek translator/redactor would turn to Italian to 'translate' the anyhow inexistent in Greek French chivalric words and notions. But given the literary parallels, I find it more likely that there was an Italian version that he used, a version that remains to be found.<br /><br />Karanastassis (who has been following this discussion and I hope that at some point will join us too) also reminded me that in Kriaras we used the War of Troy even before pi: Papathomopoulos, before the publication of the edition with Jeffreys in 1996, had published a series of articles in Dodoni, where he presented and discussed his emendations, etc., using excerpts of the text. All these had been card-indexed and used whenever needed in Kriaras Lexicon from the 5th vol. (1977) onwards. So it is not true that we are lost up to pi, but it is true that we are lost without the Addenda and I do hope that they will review this policy in the Lexicon.<br /><br />As for my response on monotonic, no, we do not disagree essentially (though you seem to be far more sympathetic with the polytonic than myself). But I have to come back on this with a more concrete answer.<br /><br />Thanks for your wishes and keep up the good work!<br /><br />Btw, I do not think that not including the Papathomopoulos-Jeffreys edition in TLG is a solution. A banner warning linguists that this text includes many emendations and divinations of the editors that do not exist in the manuscripts would better serve your purposes, I think.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />TAKTAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-1476311516378421982009-08-31T05:45:43.959+10:002009-08-31T05:45:43.959+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-20219351416284535222009-08-31T02:50:08.392+10:002009-08-31T02:50:08.392+10:00Mind you, χωρύγι is included in Πάπυρος-Μέγα Λεξικ...Mind you, χωρύγι is included in Πάπυρος-Μέγα Λεξικό της Ελληνικής Γλώσσας:<br />< *εγχωρύγιον < έγχωρος + ορύσσωΝίκος Σαραντάκοςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184327171754044982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-72132594188803631212009-08-30T19:58:52.347+10:002009-08-30T19:58:52.347+10:00@ Tasos (thou who art mine godfather):
... pneumo...@ Tasos (thou who art mine godfather):<br /><br />... pneumonia?! How did I miss *that* on your facebook status?! Dude, get well! Not least because you've got an extra mouth to feed now. :-)<br /><br />I was reticent to go into the scuttlebutt about two living scholars, but (a) it's not like I'm going to become a professional Hellenist, and (b) you did it for me. :-) I gather one of the editors was more responsible for the emendomania, and will leave it at that. :-) But yes, the intrusion of a 1700 particle is far from the only indication that the text is linguistically irresponsible. <br /><br />In fact, someone has explicitly told me that this edition should be avoided for inclusion in the TLG; but I don't exactly see people queuing up to edit it (given how monsterpiece it is); and as literature, the text is important. As with any work in the TLG, if you're doing linguistic work, try and get hold of the apparatus criticus, and check what the original manuscripts said.<br /><br />I'm happy to be corrected about the extent of Kriaras' coverage of the text. (Btw Karanastassis is Tassos Karanastassis, the long-term managing editor of Kriaras; dictionary.) We are lost up to pi, but not from pi on. (Though without an addenda policy, we're still lost up to pi.) My strategy on this blog seems to be to say something ill informed about my erstwhile field, and get the people who actually know about it to say "well, actually, it's like this..." :-) <br /><br />I know an Italianist who's told me about this "oh, you can always go to the library in Siena" attitude. It's contemptible. You can't google dead trees, you can google Siena libraries even less. Damn it to hell, Italianists, they're not YOUR texts, to pop over to Siena when you feel like it: they're the world's, the world should have access to them.<br /><br />You're a philologist and I'm not, but there is still a lot of what looks to be half-digested old French in the glossary. And while <i>contaminatio</i> does happen (the scribe has access to two versions of the source text, and mixes them up in his copy, so you can't draw a neat family tree), I've always thought <i>contaminatio</i> a greater degree of painstaking than the vernacular manuscripts seem to betray. Is it possible that the translator eclectically slipped in Italian terms of chivalry for French, *without* reference to a fully spelled out Italian version?<br /><br />Looking forward to your response on monotonic if and when you get time. I don't think we essentially disagree, but I'll see whether you think so!<br /><br />Και πάλι καλή ανάρρωση!opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-9430963807764180512009-08-30T19:39:13.211+10:002009-08-30T19:39:13.211+10:00Kind correspondents all, my thanks!
@ Blackerby: ...Kind correspondents all, my thanks!<br /><br />@ Blackerby: it turns out Early Modern Greek is not all that different from Modern Modern Greek, and that the drastic grammatical simplification between Koine and Early Modern Greek is not well attested. But I will find some samplers and post them; there's already one from <a href="http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/05/malamirovo-bulgaria-813.html" rel="nofollow">813</a>—which actually is more archaic than I'd have expected.<br /><br />@ John: thank you for googling, and for giving me "gorget"—I needed that gloss for another Greek word, in the romance of Libistros and Rhodamne. (The more Greek-looking χερόψιν, which apparently also means "handcuffs".)<br /><br />The edition was quite single-minded about relating the War Of Troy back to Benoît de Sainte-Maure's Old French; I haven't done any comparing, but would have no reason to think the author really did mean a <i>ventaille</i> by his <i>gorgiera</i>, and was quite as literal as the editors expected.<br /><br />@ Diana: if only I could be half as entertaining as <a href="http://surprisedbytime.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">your blog</a>! But you historians have an unfair advantage.<br /><br />@ Nikos: Thank you for doing my homework for me. I don't *think* χωρύγι/χωρίκι has made the lexica I've used for the TLG, but that's not really a surprise.<br /><br />@ Tasos (thou who art mine <a href="http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Play/opoudjis.html" rel="nofollow">godfather</a>): separate comment for you—godfather's privilege!opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-71165435752130644472009-08-29T20:00:50.576+10:002009-08-29T20:00:50.576+10:00Dear Nick,
as you have noticed, the apparatus of ...Dear Nick,<br /><br />as you have noticed, the apparatus of the Papathomopoulos-Jeffreys edition is full with emendations and divinatios, which are not to be taken seriously as linguistic evidence...<br /><br />As far as I know, the main reason why it took Papathomopoulos and Jeffreys so long to publish the text was that they disagreed on editorial principles and this is also the main reason why there will never be a vol. 2 - the other reason being the text's length: the War is indeed the longest text of Early Modern Greek literature that has survived to date.<br /><br />In my view (and I hope I will be able to write something on this in a more scholarly fashion in the future), there is abundant linguistic evidence in the text that points to an Italian intermediary (gorzera or gorgiera, a word that appears in Italian in 1287 according to Palazzi-Folena in the form chorgiere, is one of the many words that point to this Italian intermediary that must have been used as a model by the Greek redactors). <br /><br />The problem is that Italian scholarship has long given up on preparing modern editions of early modern texts: the preparation of such editions seems to be, bluntly, out of the question when it comes to "minor" texts and what most Italian scholars do nowadays is to provide their readers with the exact location of the rare manuscripts and old prints they use (including the infamous collocazione), in order to facilitate researchers who might be willing to go to the trouble of checking these sources for themselves in Italy...<br /><br />Anyway, I have to say that I realized the existence of this Italian intermediary thanks to Kriaras: in 1996, when the Papathomopoulos-Jeffreys edition appeared, I still worked for Kriaras' Lexicon and I must state that the info you provide about Kriaras in your text is not accurate. It is true that the War's edition arrived at a time when the 14th volume was nearly finished. However, Kriaras insisted that we should at least card-index the words included in the few pages of Papathomopoulos-Jeffreys Glossary and so we did. <br /><br />So, it is not true that Kriaras does not cover the War at all: I remember that I have used the text in many of the entries I edited (see e.g. παρά, p. 318, παππούς, sense 2, p. 315 and πανιτσέλι, an entry that comes exclusively from the War of Troy). In fact, it was πανιτσέλι that made me first suspect the existence of the Italian intermediary I mentioned above. I had discussed this entry both with Karanastassis and Kriaras, and back then, in 1996, I had asked my friend Stamatia Koliademou (the modern editor of Άνθος των χαρίτων, that will appear soon) to contact her friend Cristina Stevanoni in Verona for more info on the Italian versions of the War of Troy. Cristina could not come up with any info at all, which most probably means that the issue has not been looked at by the Italians rather than that such versions never existed. In any case, I abandoned the whole thing, because I was busy with my Mirrors of Women.<br /><br />It is regrettable indeed that there are no more Addenda in the 15-16th vols. But perhaps this is a policy that may change if we all tell them how useful they were...<br /><br />Best wishes,<br /><br />Tassos A. Kaplanis<br /> <br />PS. I still owe a reply for your summary-presentation of my views on monotonic. I will do it in due course. For the time being, I am trying to recover from... pneumonia!!!TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-75124791048441632492009-08-29T03:27:53.470+10:002009-08-29T03:27:53.470+10:00Fs & Ss are always a problem in 15thC manuscri...Fs & Ss are always a problem in 15thC manuscripts.<br /><br />Terrific fun, as usual.<br /><br />DWNauplionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598950480737808706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-56085116448485685322009-08-28T07:32:13.856+10:002009-08-28T07:32:13.856+10:00Very interesting!
Let me help a bit. Τόρτσα is al...Very interesting!<br /><br />Let me help a bit. Τόρτσα is almost certainly a loan from fr. torche (en. torch).<br /><br />As to χωρίγι, it is what we call ασβέστης (lime something). I know this because there is a small family story, about my grandfather's brother. He had just come to Piraeus from Mani, about 8 years old, and he went to school, and the tutor asked the class what the word "χωρικοί" (villagers) means. Apparently the word was not used in Mani, so he answered, quite sure of himself "Αυτοί που φτιάχνουν το χωρίκι!" (those who make lime). <br /><br />Googling χωρίκι gives nothing, but χωρύγι does give a couple of hits (excluding the 300 or so that point to a village named Χωρύγι). But even TLG has πηγάνου φύλλα μετὰ χωρυγίου ἐπίθες εἰς τὰς ὀπάς, from pseudoGalen.Νίκος Σαραντάκοςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184327171754044982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-90585503553416582792009-08-28T03:29:59.397+10:002009-08-28T03:29:59.397+10:00Well, I took the obvious step of googling [gorzera...Well, I took the obvious step of googling [gorzera Greek], and the second hit showed me the tantalizing verse fragment "Seguiva apresso Avorio, Avino e Ottone, Il duca Namo e il duca Amone a lato, Ed altri, tutti gente da gorzera, Che più di cento sono in una schiera." That looked like <i>gente da gorzera</i> was some sort of Italian equivalent of <i>noblesse de l'epee</i>, and the meter (boy, is Italian verse big on elisions!) told me that the word stress was in the right place. Granted, there was the slight phonetic mismatch of Italian [ts ~ dz] vs. Greek [z], but I had to be on the right track.<br /><br />Google's link led me to the Logos Library, which Google had found more or less by accident (the only mention of Greek on the linked page was in a list of languages), specifically a word search on <i>schiera</i>. I redirected it to <i>gorzera</i> instead, and turned up these somewhat longer snippets, with attributions:<br /><br />Context information for: gorzera<br />Match N. 1<br /><br />Author: Boiardo Matteo Maria<br />Title: ORLANDO INNAMORATO<br />Source: http://www.italicon.it/index_biblio.asp?MNUEICON=0<br />Subject: ITALIAN FICTION (853) Download text<br /> <br />... furor che par che il mondo cada; Gradasso il vidde e riparò col scudo, Ma non giova riparo a quella spada: La targa e usbergo in fino al petto nudo Convien che 'n pezzi a la campagna vada, E la <i>gorzera</i> e parte del camaglio Ne portò seco a terra de un sol taglio. Quando il re franco del colpo se avvide, Mena a due mano e il fren frangendo rode; Sino alla carne ogni arma li divide, E 'l gran<br /><br /> <br /><br />Match N. 2<br /><br />Author: Sacchetti Franco<br />Title: IL TRECENTONOVELLE<br />Source: http://www.liberliber.it/biblioteca/s/sacchetti/in<br />Subject: ITALIAN FICTION (853) Download text<br /> <br />... poter resistere al freddo che sosteneano per la levata gorgiera. E quando cominciorono a uscire fuori, e andare per Verona, a chi gli avea veduti in gorgiera parea una nuova cosa, e diceano: - Guarda li Toscani che s'han levado la <i>gorzera</i> -; e molte altre cose. E cosí rimase la cosa. E non fu ella al mondo sopra tutte le altre usanze maravigliosa questa della gorgiera? Di tutte l'altre che furono mai nel mondo, questa fu la piú strana e la piú<br /><br /> <br /><br />Match N. 3<br /><br />Author: Boiardo Matteo Maria<br />Title: ORLANDO INNAMORATO<br />Source: http://www.italicon.it/index_biblio.asp?MNUEICON=0<br />Subject: ITALIAN FICTION (853) Download text<br /> <br />... Re Desiderio e lo re Salamone E Brandimarte (che era dimorato Alquanto per disciorre ogni pregione), Ricardo e Belengieri apresiato. Seguiva apresso Avorio, Avino e Ottone, Il duca Namo e il duca Amone a lato, Ed altri, tutti gente da <i>gorzera</i>, Che più di cento sono in una schiera. E' già son gionti presso a quelle mura, Ove la zuffa è più cruda che mai, Che era cosa a vedere orrenda e scura, Come di sopra poco io ve contai. Grande<br /><br />Now you'll note that in the second fragment, <i>gorzera</i> is embedded in what seems to be a dialect quotation, and that we have <i>gorgiera</i> in the next sentence. Now that must mean a neck protector (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorget" rel="nofollow"><i>gorget</i></a> in French and English), as indeed <a href="http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgiera" rel="nofollow">the Italian Wikipedia</a> confirms, and not a visor at all! Semantic shift of that sort is certainly not unknown, but how sure are you that <i>gorzera</i> here was meant to be a literal translation of <i>ventaille</i>? Perhaps that word does not mean what you think it means.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-57949453701063213462009-08-28T01:34:00.679+10:002009-08-28T01:34:00.679+10:00Fascinating stuff! I've just entered the non-a...Fascinating stuff! I've just entered the non-academic world after completing an undergraduate degree in Greek at a small US college, so it's been nice to stay in touch through your blog. I've been curious about what happened to Greek between the New Testament (never read any Plutarch) and the Modern Greek I heard and studied in Athens during the semester I was there (lots happened, I know, but you get my drift). The interaction with French is particularly interesting as well. So, thanks from an amateur Hellenist.blackerbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13950164466978984229noreply@blogger.com