tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post3406838549917193152..comments2024-03-12T18:40:26.776+11:00Comments on Ἡλληνιστεύκοντος: Linguashmucks: Motorcycle Boy 1, Purity of Greek 0opoudjishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-29915250517757817052011-08-11T03:45:33.515+10:002011-08-11T03:45:33.515+10:00PUERO da gloriam! CheersPUERO da gloriam! CheersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-28139434986643975262009-10-20T03:44:49.941+11:002009-10-20T03:44:49.941+11:00Non nobis, Angele, sed Pueri Motorcycletistae da g...<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_nobis" rel="nofollow">Non nobis</a>, Angele, sed Pueri Motorcycletistae da gloriam.<br /><br />I guess I should translate more. Saves me coming up with my own ideas. If only I didn't have a backlog of posts of my own!opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-48083510630532852362009-10-19T22:44:56.292+11:002009-10-19T22:44:56.292+11:00As a professional translator (of just about the du...As a professional translator (of just about the dullest kind of text there is, namely EU official documents), I can only doff my figurative hat in admiration at your masterpiece.<br />Three cheers for The Motorcycle boy, without whose original your translation would never have been written!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915252269289551497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-56587114941052811292009-10-05T23:29:43.404+11:002009-10-05T23:29:43.404+11:00But... it wasn't boring! The slang of the orig...But... it wasn't boring! The slang of the original Jimbo-Boss exchange, in fact, was inventive enough that I've considered commenting on it in a separate post.<br /><br />I'm no longer an academic linguist, so I can't put the insight to much use, but I've concluded that the interesting big questions about language change (as opposed to language structure, but even then....) *are* sociological.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-88716095773487244862009-10-05T23:22:56.447+11:002009-10-05T23:22:56.447+11:00TAK no problem at all! I just wanted to make clear...TAK no problem at all! I just wanted to make clear that the above script is a sociologist's point of view -not a linguistic one.<br /><br />Nick, ha-ha, thank you again, you made my script look less boring!The Motorcycle boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16100587678540156210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-70306602152276747492009-09-23T23:32:32.472+10:002009-09-23T23:32:32.472+10:00... In fact, Modern Greek liked the idea of a deri...... In fact, Modern Greek liked the idea of a derivational affix more than the practical reason (familiar conjugations). Modern Greek in fact had *eliminated* -ρω as a verb suffix, substituting it with a swathe of -ρνω: it decided -ρα was an Aorist suffix, so the Present had to have -ρνω. φέρω became φέρνω, σπείρω σπέρνω.<br /><br />Why -ν-? Because of an analogy with -νω elsewhere. And it's a pretty wide-ranging analogy: it's now λύνω, not λύω. Basically Modern Greek doesn't want bare vowels, or liquids, ending its present stems, because they end aorist stems.<br /><br />So importing a Romance -άρω derivation suffix actually went against that trend; but once it got the template, English was as subject to it as French and Italian. German too: fifty years ago the slang for "speak" was σπρεχάρω.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-67387919018647227532009-09-23T23:12:59.906+10:002009-09-23T23:12:59.906+10:00By La-di-da, I rendered (unimaginatively) Μανταμσο...By La-di-da, I rendered (unimaginatively) Μανταμσουσούδικος "to do with Madame Sousou", a pretentious society matron in literature. (Greek wikipedia only likes to its <a href="http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%AE%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A8%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%AC%CF%82" rel="nofollow">author</a> and its <a href="http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BC_%CE%A3%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%8D_(%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1)" rel="nofollow">movie adaptation</a>; there was also a <a href="http://greek-video.net/tv-series/1986/0000/" rel="nofollow">TV adaptation</a>.)<br /><br />Modern Greek treats foreign verbs borrowed into the language as if they're nouns—they need to have a derivational suffix added to legitimate them as verbs. Especially because non-denominative verbs are a pretty closed set, in Modern as in Ancient Greek. After all, when Ancient Greek borrowed Latin verbs, it did the same (although it's really Byzantine Greek, I guess): δεφενδεύω, ἀππλικεύω, not δεφένδω, ἀπλίκω. <br /><br />And having a nice familiar derivation suffix right next to your tense suffix guarantees you won't get any oddball aorists. I mean, what *would* the aorist of δεφένδω be? ἐδέφενσα? Whereas people knew well how to form the aorists of -εύω verbs, so that presented no problem. -άρω doesn't quite obey that (and the aorist gives up and adds a vowel, φρικάρησα); but the notion of a derivational suffix for loan verbs in Greek is entrenched.<br /><br />(I can't find any Latin verbs borrowed into Hellenistic Greek but am probably not looking in the right place. ἀγγαρεύω is denominative within Greek so doesn't count.)<br /><br />Contemporary slang has -άρω, which was a default for Romance loans, patterned after the Italian infinitive I guess; so φουμάρω "I smoke" from <i>fumare</i>. Likewise μπαρκάρω "to embark". -ίζω gets used with Turkish words; where I had "flip off", the original has σιχτιρίζω, from Turkish <i>siktir</i> "fuck off". I *think* Pontic prefers -εύω.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-59099435357183465552009-09-23T22:28:54.650+10:002009-09-23T22:28:54.650+10:00Which bit of The Motorcycle Boy's Greek was re...Which bit of The Motorcycle Boy's Greek was rendered as "La-de-da" in your translation?<br /><br />Why φρικάρω and not just φρίκω (asks the dilettante classicist)?Wmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10894049524583247454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-89811605326541154862009-09-23T11:43:33.708+10:002009-09-23T11:43:33.708+10:00> I liked reading that script very much -are yo...> I liked reading that script very much -are you sure that is mine Nick?<br /><br />Well, the use of Australian slang in the Jimbo–Chief exchange isn't. :-)opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-34289502225328586112009-09-23T11:03:49.505+10:002009-09-23T11:03:49.505+10:00@The Motorcycle boy: don't get me wrong; I rea...@The Motorcycle boy: don't get me wrong; I really loved your post! You may view the debugging of the etymologies of κουζίνα and παρκάρω I provided as an indication of my professional maladie... And, of course, nobody is perfect!TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-27333749737096213952009-09-23T02:04:52.227+10:002009-09-23T02:04:52.227+10:00I liked reading that script very much -are you sur...I liked reading that script very much -are you sure that is mine Nick?<br /><br />TAK, is probably right about the etymology of above words, but they came to Greece via French or USA -following our limitless worship for the "foreign lifestyle". At least, that's what I can presume from the historical facts -but I am not always right -OK?The Motorcycle boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16100587678540156210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-43784371288205551432009-09-23T01:17:03.959+10:002009-09-23T01:17:03.959+10:00@TAK: Thanks for the parallels. Actually the slang...@TAK: Thanks for the parallels. Actually the slang in the original is so inventive, I'm halfway inclined to say its a much better example of literature than its socialist realist companion. <br /><br />Thanks for the debugging of the etymologies, although of course that doesn't detract from MB's larger point.<br /><br />I'm a bit surprised: do Greeks really wait until middle age to venerate their forebears? Is that concomitant with the natural conservatism of middle age? (Which also makes me wonder whether the Left tries to counter-appropriate the ancients to its own ends. I'm guessing no.)opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-45722934759354336902009-09-23T00:59:39.349+10:002009-09-23T00:59:39.349+10:00I second TAK's congratulations, and offer hear...I second TAK's congratulations, and offer heartfult kudos to the excellent Motorcycle Boy.<br /><br />Incidentally, following your link to the Wikipedia article on Kozani, I found this section on etymology:<br /><br /><i>According to prevailing opinion, the name comes from the village of Epirus Kósdiani, the origin of settlers of Kozani in 1392. The settlement was first named Kózdiani, which then, it was changed into Kóziani, and in the end into Kozáni.[2]<br /><br />The name "Kozani" probably may also derive from the South Slavic kožani < koža 'skin (goatskin)'.[3] The name of the city in South Slavic languages is Кожани (Kožani).</i><br /><br />Am I wrong in thinking the Slavic etymology makes much more sense than the first one, with its strained reshapings? (We won't even get into what "probably may also" is supposed to mean.)Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-13626512879596942422009-09-22T23:07:20.536+10:002009-09-22T23:07:20.536+10:00Great job, Nick!
What I enjoyed the most were the...Great job, Nick!<br /><br />What I enjoyed the most were the two examples with the garage boy, which inevitably bring to mind Raymond Queneau's <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercises_in_Style" rel="nofollow"> Exercises de style </a> (wonderfully rendered into Greek by Achilleas Kyriakides in 1984) and the more recent graphic equivalent by Matt Madden <a href="http://www.exercisesinstyle.com" rel="nofollow"> 99 Ways to Tell a Story </a>. <br /><br />Now, one thing that the motorcycle boy got wrong is the etymology of κουζίνα - which is not French but Venetian <a href="http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/tools/lexica/triantafyllides/search.html?lq=%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%AF%CE%BD%CE%B1&dq=" rel="nofollow"> Τριανταφυλλίδης, κουζίνα </a>. The same goes for παρκάρω, which is of either Italian or French provenance, but certainly not of English <a href="http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/tools/lexica/triantafyllides/search.html?lq=%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%AC%CF%81%CF%89&dq=" rel="nofollow"> Τριανταφυλλίδης, παρκάρω </a>. <br /><br />However, verbs like κουλάρω (to be cool or to stay calm) or φρικάρω (to freak out) are indeed hellenized English words.<br /><br />The fact that Ancient Greek is a language form that All Greeks hate when students and adore when middle-aged is indeed pathological and requires a group-analysis (of the whole nation, I think!).<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />TAKTAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.com