tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post2722891794471056936..comments2024-03-12T18:40:26.776+11:00Comments on Ἡλληνιστεύκοντος: Kozani: a stab at etymologyopoudjishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-2187450288845891302010-04-23T14:56:22.914+10:002010-04-23T14:56:22.914+10:00"Kozani is spelled out with a diacritical ove..."Kozani is spelled out with a diacritical over the z, which indicates that the Austrian surveyors saw it as still predominantly slavophone"<br /><br />Considering that in the early 20th century, before the Balkan Wars, Kozani was a mostly Greek-speaking town (along with fewer Turkish speakers) surrounded by Turkish-speaking villages, perhaps a different explanation is in order. When even Vasil Kanchov portrays the town as Greek and Turkish speaking (though I'm not sure about his numbers), you know your theory is bad.<br /><br />Btw, in many areas of Macedonia, and I believe other areas of northern greek dialects, Greek zeta as pronounced as zh, though I'm not familiar with Kozani. I'll have to take your proclamations about the modern pronunciations with a pinch of salt. Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-75909943202922299692009-09-28T01:04:02.124+10:002009-09-28T01:04:02.124+10:00*runs, hides**runs, hides*Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-30862126176282531122009-09-27T05:38:04.087+10:002009-09-27T05:38:04.087+10:00... Well, I assumed Pierre's "Ko'zani...... Well, I assumed Pierre's "Ko'zani" meant IPA [koˈzani] = Kozáni, not Kózani with apostrophe as acute à la TeX. So I quite misunderstood his evidence!<br /><br />An old Kózani pronunciation means the connection to Kózdiani is not problematic (although we'd still need see proof of that connection). Why the latter-day stress shift, though, if that's what's happened, is a real puzzle. Yes, Κόζανη in ancient accentuation is impossible, but I just cannot believe that kind of pedantry would have motivated this stress shift.<br /><br />In a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language" rel="nofollow">certain language spoken immediately to the north of Kozani</a>, we note that: "Other than recent loanwords, word stress in Macedonian is antepenultimate [...]. By comparison, in standard Bulgarian, the stress can fall anywhere within a word." That would explain Kózhani alright, but not Greek Kozáni. If anything, it corroborates Tasos: "Kozáni" does not sound more "Greek" than "Kózani", but "Kózani" does sound more "Makedonski" than "Kozáni".<br /><br />This is getting more and more confusing. I blame Language Hat again! :-)opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-49841430499387828762009-09-27T05:22:59.890+10:002009-09-27T05:22:59.890+10:00Especially for you Peter :-) , I am now highlighti...Especially for you Peter :-) , I am now highlighting Wikipedia links in the blog with a Ⓦ . It's a <a href="http://underscorebleach.net/jotsheet/2004/12/offsite-external-links-css-attribute-selectors" rel="nofollow">fairly old CSS trick by now</a>, although it's not clearly to me whether Internet Explorer deals with it yet.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-20845224286131332382009-09-27T04:59:31.222+10:002009-09-27T04:59:31.222+10:00Although I did not want to bother you all with ano...Although I did not want to bother you all with another long comment, I have to make a few extra remarks. <br /><br />Pierre is right about W. M. Leake: on pp. 297-301 of vol. III of his <a href="http://anemi.lib.uoc.gr/metadata/5/a/b/metadata-01-0000438.tkl" rel="nofollow"> Travels in Northern Greece </a>, London, 1835, there are several occurrences of Kózani. <br /><br />That said, Leake is not always accurate on names/info. E.g. on p. 301 he writes: "George Sakellário, translator of a part of the Voyage D'Anacharsis and some other works, which he undertook for the benefit of his countrymen [...]. His brother-in-law, Papa Kharísmio, who is now residing at Kózani, is an author also, and has written a Pantheon for the use of the schools of Greece." <br /><br />"Papa Kharísmio" is of course, Charisios Megdanis, the scholar to whom I have referred many times in my previous comments, who was Sakellarios's father (not brother) in law (Sakellarios after the death of his first wife got remarried to Megdanis's daughter Mitió, a well-known (to specialists again) scholar, who is in fact the first translator of Goldoni's plays in Greek. Leake's confusion may be explained because Sakellarios and Megdanis were roughly of the same age, born in 1765 and 1768 respectively. But "Kharísmio" appears to be inexplicably mistaken). <br /><br />However, as I said, in Leake there are many occurrences of "Kózani" and I take it for granted that this is the only name that he heard and he records it correctly. As I take for granted Pierre's statement that when he was in the region in 1960-1 all the Slavophones and the Hellenophones that he met called it Kózani. <br /><br />This, on the other hand, tells us little, or nothing, on the placename's etymology. Because as Nick said, we have to make sure that -an(i) is meaningful in Slavic to justify a Slavic etymology from Kóza (and from what I could find from readings and friends it is not - on this an expert's opinion would be useful and is still required. But if, according to all indications, it is not, then we have to accept that the etymology from Kóza is a folk etymology). <br /><br />Additionally, from what I know "Kózani" was never generalized among Hellenophones (it is not today and it was not in the early 1990s when I spent a couple of months there as a soldier), and in written Greek sources from the 18th c. onwards the name is exclusively recorded as "Kozáni": you may find examples of such sources in <a href="http://www.kozlib.gr/dnn/kovwebel/%CE%9A%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE/tabid/293/language/en-US/Default.aspx" rel="nofollow"> Κοβεντάρειος Βιβλιοθήκη </a>, though the quality is not always great. I restrict myself to two easily readable examples: the first is <a href="http://www.kozlib.gr/collections/view.php?id=X127&lang=&page=7" rel="nofollow"> Megdanis's manuscript </a> that I have already mentioned (the link will take you to p. 6 where Κοζάνη is easily discernible). The second comes from another important local scholar of the period of the Greek Enlightenment, Michail Perdikaris (1766-1828) and it is a <a href="http://www.kozlib.gr/collections/view.php?id=X128" rel="nofollow"> manuscript dated in 1805 </a> (the link will take you to the title page where again Κοζάνη is easily discernible). <br /><br />Even if I accepted, for the sake of argument, that in all the period from 18th-20th c. the city was generally called "Kózani" and written "Kozáni", I would still have to explain why this was so, and how, in linguistic terms, "Kózani" became "Kozáni". Does "Kozáni" sound more "Greek" than "Kózani"? I seriously doubt it. <br /><br />And why would Megdanis and the other local scholars would call it Kózani when a foreigner (e.g. Leake) was present and Kozáni in their writings? Could it be that Kózani was perceived as the foreign name for the "Greek" Kozáni? Could it be that Kózani was closer to the internalized accentual patterns that foreigners had? Is it a case of 'phonological deafness'? Dunno, but I find it strange.TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-55334255028349272202009-09-25T13:09:39.774+10:002009-09-25T13:09:39.774+10:00Btw, Pierre, thank you for your contribution, and ...Btw, Pierre, thank you for your contribution, and it is some evidence that Kozáni/Kozháni is independent of Kózdiani...<br /><br />If we do meet next month, btw, let's agree not to talk about Unicode. :-)opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-63644447796000362652009-09-24T15:31:06.433+10:002009-09-24T15:31:06.433+10:00... By "scaffolding", btw, I'm think...... By "scaffolding", btw, I'm thinking almost in Semantic Web terms (a URL for every concept on Earth, to anchor hyperlinks to). But again, as definitions rather than primarily as sources of argumentation. The argumentation happens in papers (which are not online), and in comment threads...opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-51948070239011593042009-09-24T15:26:51.787+10:002009-09-24T15:26:51.787+10:00@Peter: If I mention a Greek town, or variant of A...@Peter: If I mention a Greek town, or variant of Arabic, or monastic author, I'll link to Wikipedia as a handy glossary. Is it academically reliable? Not always for detail or niche work (then again, I don't think the City of Kozani website is intrinsically more reliable either). Not never either. But it's useful as scaffolding. And it's also useful because it exposes to people the contentiousness by which we come to knowledge. (As this thread also illustrates.)<br /><br />@TAK: Mm. I still don't know: we'd really need to see what Lioufis knew about population movements. Kozdiani wouldn't also have been named for Cossana, and if Kozani was indeed settled from Kozdiani, it's hard for me to think they're not related. (Lots of "if"s there.)<br /><br />But <i>-an-</i> is indeed meaningful in Latin, and what I'd like to know now is, is <i>-an-</i> similarly meaningful in Slavonic or Albanian? If not, the Beneventum ~ Velvento parallel is compelling...<br /><br />I had the impression Sourdi was soldiers' slang; so it's local? Hm. Too far from Vlach populations for that to be a latter-day explanation?opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-4761771508575237222009-09-24T14:44:34.153+10:002009-09-24T14:44:34.153+10:00Hi, Nick.
Do you consider Wikipedia to be a relia...Hi, Nick.<br /><br />Do you consider Wikipedia to be a reliable academic source? I am asking because I've noticed that you cite it often.<br /><br /><br />P.S. I can vouch for this: Πτολεμαΐδα has some of the most beautiful women in the country.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08068077941877080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-75328639175622172382009-09-24T10:31:05.759+10:002009-09-24T10:31:05.759+10:00However, I have to note:
1. We do not know for ce...However, I have to note:<br /><br />1. We do not know for certain that the 'habitation was interrupted in Byzantine times'. This is an assumption. True, the city is not recorded in Byzantine sources, but this does not necessarily mean that it was completely abandoned. It could have well been reduced in population and importance to yet another mountain village in Macedonia that deserved no particular mention in imperial sources. This is important, because all the etymologies you found are based on this assumption, which lacks solid proof!<br /><br />2. The Turkish etymology is a folk etymology, as you noted, but in my view, so is the Slavic. I mean, come on, who can really buy this: 'the first inhabitants of the region one day saw ... a she-goat running through the trees, and called the village Kózani or Kóziani; for kóza means a she-goat, and kózia a skin in Bulgarian'. <br /><br />3. Both etymologies from kóza/kózia and from kózdiani/kóstiani present serious linguistic problems: kózdiani/kóstiani requires a change of zdi/sti to z and a shift of the stress from the antepenultimate to the penultimate, which is very unusual and highly unlikely. The latter is a problem for the etymology from kóza/kózia too, which additionally presents another, major in my view, problem: where did the <b> -ni ending </b> come from? If the story with the goat or any relation with the Slavic kóza/kózia is valid in this case, why wasn't the city simply called Kóza/Kózia? In my view, the most probable assumption is that the place name Kozáni was already there when the Slavs came and they invented a rural legend relating the city name with a word that is very common in their language and thus creating yet another folk etymology (the Ottomans did the same some centuries later). As you said, there is nothing wrong with folk etymologies (most of them are really amusing), but that's a completely different story.<br /><br />4. I discussed Megdanis's etymology with Tassos Karanastassis and he was quite surprised: he told me that Thavoris (Αντώνιος Θαβώρης) has proposed a similar etymology from Latin Beneventum (today the Italian city of <br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevento" rel="nofollow"> Benevento </a> in Campania) for the nearby village of <a href="http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%B2%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%82" rel="nofollow"><br />Βελβεντό </a>. I couldn't find Thavoris's paper on the history and etymology of Velvendo, but, much to my surprise, I found <br /><a href="http://www.velvento.gr/gr_v/v_history_m.htm" rel="nofollow"> this </a>. So, on the official site of the village, Charisios Megdanis, Antonios Thavoris and other scholars who have favoured the Latin etymology are mentioned (which most probably means that the person who wrote the text for the site did her/his reading, cause I assume that the info provided come from Thavoris's scholarly work). I went back to Megdanis ms. and indeed he mentions Velvendo too - remember that his main point was that when the Romans conquered the region they (re)named many places and the proof for this is that not only Kozani but also many other places, villages, etc. in the region have names of Latin provenance.<br /><br />5. The way I see it now, the etymology I found in Megdanis and proposed here as only an alternative, seems to be the most likely etymology of the placename.<br /><br />6. To make it a bit more complicated: Kozani is also known to locals by another popular name that is Surdia and its inhabitants are also called Surdi! In its case, we have not one but two names of most probably Latin provenance that have not yet been adequately explained...<br /><br />Take care,<br /><br />TAKTAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-19266319017179675222009-09-24T10:27:07.378+10:002009-09-24T10:27:07.378+10:00Some additional things (in 2 comments cause they ...Some additional things (in 2 comments cause they exceed the limit imposed by blogger):<br /><br />First of all, I think I managed to decipher the alternative name for Cosa that Megdanis provides in the ms.: it's <i> Κόσσανον </i>. This is indeed a Roman city in Calabria, the city of <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=yrNqHE9YmmIC&pg=PA340&dq=buffaloria+cossanum&lr=#v=onepage&q=buffaloria%20cossanum&f=false" rel="nofollow"><br />Cossanum </a>. [The pronunciation -z- or -s- is not a problem here; both could be valid depending on the dialect, e.g. Cossano Canavese is in piemontese Cusàn, etc.]<br /><br />I cannot exclude the possibility that Megdanis was guessing; it was a good guess though! As I cannot exclude the possibility that as a local scholar of the 18th c. he had in hand some info that we lack today.<br /><br />The important thing in this case is to check the historicity of his story - sth. that I cannot do.TAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-987280835788296532009-09-24T09:35:39.045+10:002009-09-24T09:35:39.045+10:00Diana (aka Nauplion) passes most of your blogs to ...Diana (aka Nauplion) passes most of your blogs to me from across the hall, expecially when they concern the Nomos region of Dhytike Makedonia (I too can be cautious in this cactus field.)<br /><br />I know Ko'zani from the almost 6 months I spent walking in the region in 1960—1961 and, when I was there, the dwindling number of Slavophones (they were being persuaded that it would be better for them to move further north) called it Ko'zhani and the Hellenophones called it Ko'zani. That would seem to me to be one of the best arguments for the accent. <br /><br />W. M. Leake, bless him, gives a stress accent for all the contemporary placenames he records, and in his day it was Ko'zani. Felix de Beaujour might also be helpful.<br /><br />But the best source if you need to use toponyms for linguistic history, is the Austrian General Staff maps created in a resurvey between 1890 and about 1915. The surveyors had no loony chauvinist ideas about what they were doing (at least not in the southern Balkans). They recorded what they heard from what they judged to be the majority population of the location. These maps are the last honest historical record from the late Ottoman period and illustrate the delightful “Macédoine” of settlement that survived until the ethnic cleansing that folllowed the first Balkan War. <br /><br />They can be seen at <br /><br />lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm<br /><br /> You don't need to know Hungarian to use this beautifully organized site. Simply find the sheet you need on the general outline and click on it. There is a magnifying glass provided so that you can look at the part you want. Kózani is in the upper right quadrant of sheet 39-40 Joannina. Kozani is spelled out with a diacritical over the z, which indicates that the Austrian surveyors saw it as still predominantly slavophone. Unfortunately, they did not add stress accents.<br /><br />Pierre MacKay<br />www.angiolello.netPierre MacKayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06539446944905632852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-78316885208221580072009-09-23T11:37:04.802+10:002009-09-23T11:37:04.802+10:00@TAK: you r0x0r. The scan of the Public Library of...@TAK: you r0x0r. The scan of the Public Library of Kozani doesn't r0x0r, so I'll take your reading as read.<br /><br />Megdanis could be guessing; that's my hunch. Problem is, so could Lioufis, unless I see his sources. We know there was an ancient town on the site, but that habitation was interrupted in Byzantine times, so a survival of the old Roman name is—not impossible, but less likely.<br /><br />It's an alternative alright, and thank you for doing the donkey work (man, you r0x0r). Better research than *I* undertook! I'm still assuming Kozani is Slavonic though (/kozia/ > /koʒa/).opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-24804787659741091512009-09-23T11:19:59.896+10:002009-09-23T11:19:59.896+10:00MUST LEARN NOT TO SKIM!!! The English Wikipedia pa...MUST LEARN NOT TO SKIM!!! The English Wikipedia page points out that "In the south-west of the modern city, on Siopoto hill, there was a settlement named Kalyvia, between 1100 and 1300, traces of which are still preserved." So that solves that: ignore the modern Kalyvia I found much further west...opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-84852439572269771912009-09-23T10:52:50.812+10:002009-09-23T10:52:50.812+10:00Now, I cannot really tell you to what extent what ...Now, I cannot really tell you to what extent what I found is true, but you might find it interesting as an alternative at least.<br /><br />After I read your post, Nick, my first thought was that we should find a text as old as possible that would deal with the history of the region. Since I knew that Kozani has a very good library <a href="http://www.kozlib.gr/dnn/kovwebel/%CE%9A%CE%B5%CE%BD%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE/tabid/293/language/en-US/Default.aspx" rel="nofollow">Κοβεντάρειος Δημοτική Βιβλιοθήκη Κοζάνης</a>, I thought I should try my luck there.<br /><br />I searched the <a href="http://87.202.195.84/opac2/zConnectELL.html" rel="nofollow"> Online Catalogue </a> and I found a history by a well-known (to specialists at least) local scholar of the period of the Enlightenment in manuscript form. The scholar is Charisios Megdanis (1768-1823) and the text may be found <a href="http://www.kozlib.gr/collections/view.php?id=X127" rel="nofollow"> here </a><br /><br />Of course, the fact that the library has digitized part of its rare books and manuscripts was a nice surprise - the nasty part was that the quality of the images is so low that the manuscript could hardly be read...<br /><br />Anyhow, what Megdanis suggests in page 14 (according to the hand-written page numeration) of the ms. is that the name comes from Latin and that the city was named after a Cosa in Calabria in Roman times. Unfortunately, no matter how hard I tried I could not really read the whole story he narrates in pp. 14-17 due to the low quality of the scans. But the general idea is that when the Romans conquered the region they (re)named many places and the proof for this, Megdanis claims, is that not only Kozani but also many other places, villages, etc. in the region have names of Latin provenance.<br /><br />Now, I looked for a Cosa in Calabria, but I couldn't find one. I only found <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosenza" rel="nofollow"> Cosenza </a>. However, founding a colonial city named Cosa would not be unheard of for the Romans - check the case of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosa" rel="nofollow"> Cosa in Tuscany </a>. What is even more interesting is that a man from Cosa in Latin would be called <i> Cosanus </i>(and of course the name is very well known and attested even today in the form Cosano in Italy). If there is a grain of truth in the story Megdanis tells, then perhaps a connection with a Roman Cosa (or a Roman Cosanus) should not be excluded. Especially if we take into account the fact that the genitive of Cosanus is Cosani [= Kozani!]. <br /><br />Perhaps the Roman name of the city would have been sth. Cosani [in which case you already have the accent on the penultimate and you do not need to bring in any Kózdiani or Kóstiani or goats and goatskins...].<br /><br />Archaelogical excavation has brought to light a cemetery of Roman times in modern day Kozani and the findings in the graves suggest that there was a rich Roman city-trade centre there (unfortunately, we do not know how this city was called; check <a href="http://hellas.teipir.gr/prefectures/greek/Kozanis/Kozani.htm" rel="nofollow"> this </a> in Greek). <br /><br />Of course, I cannot check the historical truth of what Megdanis claims. I only offer it here as a possible alternative.<br /><br />TAKTAKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444087731927549866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-20766804015934523762009-09-23T09:37:45.272+10:002009-09-23T09:37:45.272+10:00There used to be a Calive outside Nauplion where -...There used to be a Calive outside Nauplion where -- surprise -- Albanians lived. There is at least one Kalyvia in the Peloponnesos now, according to my driving map.Nauplionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598950480737808706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-22378918324536445882009-09-23T06:43:25.135+10:002009-09-23T06:43:25.135+10:00Sorry to take you away from your taxes, but I deep...Sorry to take you away from your taxes, but I deeply appreciate the research!Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-64049878193191788312009-09-23T02:32:44.851+10:002009-09-23T02:32:44.851+10:00The Kalyvia I found is far to the west of Selitsa,...The Kalyvia I found is far to the west of Selitsa, so it may not be the right one for the City of Kozani website account. Instead of Kalyvia "huts", Lioufis referred to a region of Paliospita "Old Houses", which is presumably somewhere completely different.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.com