tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post2495280621111552282..comments2024-03-21T09:39:36.523+11:00Comments on Ἡλληνιστεύκοντος: Tzetzes' Theogony, continuedopoudjishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-22296013201041680382021-01-20T11:20:11.900+11:002021-01-20T11:20:11.900+11:00It may also be Rusyn (Ukrainian and Rusyn are mutu...It may also be Rusyn (Ukrainian and Rusyn are mutually intelligible enough by their native speakers), especially if we assume that this "[στε]" after "σδρά" is properly reconstructed.<br /><br />"сьте"("στε") is the grammatical 2nd person plural form of the Rusyn "to be", "здравити" ("zdraviti" / "zdravyty") is "to greet", and "здравля" ("zdravlia" / "zdravlja") is "health".<br /><br />In this case, "σδρά [στε] ..." would mean "Hello to you (guys), ..." which can be also understood as "Good health to you (guys), ...", followed by a list of whom you address this phrase to.Daniel Haidachukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706899179873199066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-15450269066520401482020-11-09T11:53:18.845+11:002020-11-09T11:53:18.845+11:00In the extended version, the phrases provided by J...In the extended version, the phrases provided by John Tzetzes "σδρᾶ πράτε, σέστριτζα" (or "βράτε") and "δόβρα δένη" are Ukrainian.<br /><br />"σδρᾶ πράτε, σέστριτζα":<br />"Здрав, брате, сестриця" ("Hello, brother, sister!"; This "hello" can be understood as a wish of health).<br /><br />"δόβρα δένη" corresponds to Ukrainian "Добридень!" ("Hello!", "Good day!", "Good afternoon!").<br /><br />Russes, Rosses, or Ruthenians, spoke Ukrainian. The Russian language didn't exist yet and appeared much later.Daniel Haidachukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706899179873199066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-13815929554902388932017-03-09T23:45:35.198+11:002017-03-09T23:45:35.198+11:00"Karindash" on modern Balkar language me..."Karindash" on modern Balkar language mean "brother".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07296647789044053905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-48250109378675145502017-03-09T23:43:29.430+11:002017-03-09T23:43:29.430+11:00Karindash on modern Balkar language mean "bro...Karindash on modern Balkar language mean "brother".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07296647789044053905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-25218071766452420882014-04-25T17:37:50.551+10:002014-04-25T17:37:50.551+10:00karın + -daş > karındaş = ἀδελφός < ά (copul...karın + -daş > karındaş = ἀδελφός < ά (copulative) + δελφύς.<br /><br />karın = δελφύς = womb.Ein Steppenwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01050569954300868302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-58342072583719908532013-02-12T03:42:56.260+11:002013-02-12T03:42:56.260+11:00Michael Psellus is not dissing Alania, the sentenc...Michael Psellus is not dissing Alania, the sentence is incomplete, it follows as: "This kingdom was not stately in any way, nor was it given any special consideration, but always granted the Roman Empire the pledge of its loyality." <br /><br />His main point is that "despite of all that...Alania was always loyal to us"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01582464768440807577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-35119361805572299992010-02-17T05:15:38.133+11:002010-02-17T05:15:38.133+11:00Well, it's not clear what Paul actually meant ...Well, it's not clear what Paul actually meant by the phrase. Was he making an affirmation of a present fact, or praying for a future event? The Aramaic (<i>not</i> Hebrew) just isn't clear.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-1262485747120173992010-02-15T05:17:26.286+11:002010-02-15T05:17:26.286+11:00though presumably from French pentagon, hexagon, e...<i>though presumably from French </i>pentagon<i>, </i>hexagon<i>, etc.</i><br /><br />Pentagone, hexagone.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-67157427318234243152010-02-10T13:55:46.076+11:002010-02-10T13:55:46.076+11:00Sorry, accidentally deleted Peter's comment in...Sorry, accidentally deleted Peter's comment instead of the Spam I was aiming too. Here it is again:<br /><br /><i>But Psellus wasn't any more respectful to Georgians. As far as he was concerned, "all you Caucasians look alike".</i><br /><br />It's fitting that the m-word is being discussed because Psellus was a Μουνί, with a capial Mu. The man was a show off who only cared for himself. It was his treachery that brought the incapable, sapless Constantine X Ducas to the throne---the buffoon who screwed relations (under Psellus's advice) with the indispensable Armenians over some trite, religious disagreement. What a catastrophe that was (Manzikert).<br /><br /><br />P.S. I'm sorry for the rough language, N, :)opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-71615788920053996602010-02-10T05:48:09.226+11:002010-02-10T05:48:09.226+11:00The dominiance of Persian precedes rather than fol...The dominiance of Persian precedes rather than follows the arrival of the Selcuks on the borders of the Byzantine world. The official language of the selcuk administration was Persian, and a great many of the builder's inscriptions even in the heart of Asia Minor are in Persian. The Selcuks had taken over the "Sultan" (= arbitrary power) from the Persian Buyids, and there was probably a well established habit of thinking about the lands immediately east of Asia Minor as Persian (certainly not Arab). <br /><br />In ordinary conversation, however, the Selcuks would surely have used their form of Turkish, which would probably be related more to Kipchak or Ozbek than to what became Ottoman. <br /><br />I haven't yet been able to make anything of the rest of the "Persian" in the phrase, but kardeş is exactly the same word as karındaş, the shorter form being a characteristic compression in spoken Turkish. The two forms are cross-referenced in Redhouse, A Turkish English Lexicon---the finest of all the bilingual dictionaries of Turkish. You can't analyze kardeş, the kar is meaningless in context but, as dystonnipiptiron says, the longer word can be analysed as womb-buddy. <br /><br />In Ottoman, "elti" ('a' and 'e' are a vowel-pairing) is "sister-in-law" which might well be a respectful term of address. <br /><br />A syllable dropped out of my rendering of Ṣabaḥa 'l-hayr. (Wehr's dictionary notes that the more formal version is Ṣabaḥa bi-'l-hayr, but I never heard that in Egypt). I wish Unicode would allow the internationally recognized h with a cup accent for "kh".Pierre MacKayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06539446944905632852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-53916390349976398662010-02-09T00:10:53.537+11:002010-02-09T00:10:53.537+11:00Thanks to all, and to the linklove from Don Hat. I...Thanks to all, and to the linklove from Don Hat. I'll try not to absent myself for as long. (Though I'm already leaving opɯcɯlɯklɑr fallow, and I have in mind a series on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_subtilior" rel="nofollow">Ars Subtilior</a> and the <a href="http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/saba.html" rel="nofollow">Saba maqam</a> that isn't going to write itself.)<br /><br />(No, 14th century intellectual French composers did not use Arabic modes. But they did both come up with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_fourth" rel="nofollow">diminished fourths</a>, for different reasons...)<br /><br />Pierre: Hm. The Arabic is actually more distant from the Greek transcription than the Latin or the Russian, or even the Ossetian. But there's no reason to make too much of that, right?<br /><br />Diver of Sinks: oh, I realised <i>kardaş</i> can't be of Persian origin soon enough, if it's showing up in Seljuk Turkish. (John, I'm presuming the major influx of Persian influence was after the 12th century, but I could be wrong.) I was making fun of myself taking Tzetzes' label "Persian" on face value.<br /><br />John: Tzetzes' non-Pauline interpretation of <i>maran atha</i> confirms he actually could parse Hebrew?<br /><br />John: I wonder how different Kuman and Seljuk Turkish were in the 12th century anyway, though...opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-37993012434072167672010-02-08T23:53:22.310+11:002010-02-08T23:53:22.310+11:00"As for kardaş, I dunno, maybe it is a Turkis..."As for kardaş, I dunno, maybe it is a Turkish loan from Persian." <br />Definitely not, the original Turkish word used to be karındaş, which means something like "fellow with regard to the belly", both components (karın and -daş) being of Turkish origin. But I'll try to check my Persian dictionnary and come back in a few hours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-29604988367370532982010-02-07T08:27:12.401+11:002010-02-07T08:27:12.401+11:00For the Arabic: (which is not all that bad.
'...For the Arabic: (which is not all that bad.<br /><br />'Ila 'ayna ta`mari (The 'ila is not really right, since it implies motion toward)<br />= Where do you live? (feminine with the final i, masculine with final a) <br /><br />min 'ayna 'anti<br />Where are you from?<br /><br />Mawla, sabah -khayr<br />My lord (master, teacher, etc.) good morning.<br />The good morning has got rather compressed, but it is the normal Christian, (when distinguished from Muslim) greeting. <br /><br />I have used single close quote for hamza, and open quote for `ayn. The final a of 'ila and Mawla is long.Pierre MacKayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06539446944905632852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-37343931719331204912010-02-07T06:45:56.919+11:002010-02-07T06:45:56.919+11:00Turks in Scythia: From a Turkish perspective, the ...Turks in Scythia: From a Turkish perspective, the distinction between "Turkish" and "Turkic" is unimportant, a fine detail; the Turks are the Turks, and if an Istanbul intellectual does not understand the speech of the Uyghurs of Eastern Turkistan, there are peasants in Central Anatolia whose ordinary conversation he can't follow either, and never mind that he pays taxes to the same government as the latter but not the former.<br /><br />Persian loans in Turkish: Before the 20th century, Turkish was so heavily overlaid with Persian and Perso-Arabic loans that Ottoman poets could go on for many lines before being required to use an actual Turkish word. Not so today: Atatürk's famous five-day 1927 speech, we are told, is so Ottoman that it has had to be translated into Turkish three separate times, in 1963, 1986, and 1995, in order to make it intelligible to modern Turks. A nice example from <i>The Turkish language reform: a catastrophic success</i> by Geoffrey L. Lewis (very much recommended):<br /><br />Ottoman: Bir müsellesin mesaha-i sathiyesi, kaidesinin irtifaina hasıl-ı zarbinin nısfına müsavidir.<br /><br />Modern: Bir üçgenin yüzölçümü, tabanının yüksekline çarpımının yarısına eşittir.<br /><br />English: The area of a triangle is equal to the base times half the height.<br /><br />Except for <i>-gen-</i> in <i>üçgen</i> 'triangle/3-side', which looks like the old Turkic form meaning 'wide' but is really <i>-γον-</i> (though presumably from French <i>pentagon, hexagon</i>, etc.), the second version has no Persian or Arabic at all. The first version, on the other hand, has even more loanwords than the English, even including the noun-compound marker <i>-i</i>, a purely Persian grammatical device. (Then again, as Lewis points out, a country Turk from pre-reform days would likely interpret <i>üçgen</i> as 'three fallow fields'!<br /><br />Marana tha: This is of course famous from its inclusion verbatim in 1 Cor 16:22, but is distinctively Aramaic, not Hebrew. Depending on how you break the words, it can be read, saith WP, as מרנא תא <i>maranâʔ thâʔ</i> 'Our Lord, come!' or מרן אתא <i>maran ʔathâʔ</i> 'Our Lord has come'. The first reading, the prayer, is most usual in the West, but apparently Tzetzes assumes the second, which is a creedal affirmation.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-68436089479563649122010-02-07T06:45:25.365+11:002010-02-07T06:45:25.365+11:00A fantastic post, and I agree with your conclusion...A fantastic post, and I agree with your conclusion.Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-55427623375589022242010-02-07T06:38:07.687+11:002010-02-07T06:38:07.687+11:00Thoroughly interesting stuff. Thank you!Thoroughly interesting stuff. Thank you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1291147930399569160.post-53543619467035136342010-02-07T06:28:01.459+11:002010-02-07T06:28:01.459+11:00Godyergood!Godyergood!Nauplionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598950480737808706noreply@blogger.com